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    <title>Roundtrip</title>
    <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/list.php?7</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Discussions about roundtrip engineering (BPEL, XPDL, BizTalk, ...)]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 22:37:44 +0200</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 22:37:44 +0200</lastBuildDate>
    <category>Roundtrip</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Simple XML or BPEL to execute BPMN processes</title>
      <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,173#msg-173</link>
      <author>benoitdubouloz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dear Manfred und Janko,

I am very interested by the xml schema for the generated simple xml bpmn representation. Where can it be found? You can answer me at benoit.dubouloz@scr.siemens.com

Best regards

Benoit Dubouloz]]></description>
      <category>Roundtrip</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,173#msg-173</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 22:37:44 +0200</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Simple XML or BPEL to execute BPMN processes</title>
      <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,143#msg-143</link>
      <author>sturm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi Janko,

round trip engineering involves reverse engineering, which addresses mainly the possibility to consistently import process definitions into a tool. Somewhere on the roadmap, we have planned to have a closer look to this issue, as we feel enough market demand for it.

IMHO, I think it's more likely that we will support Simple XML imports (or BPDM imports), than BPEL imports. Due to the nature of BPEL it is quite a challange to gain a meaningful and human readable BPMN diagram out of a (externally defined or modified) BPEL definition. But there might be contrary opinions to my statement. This area just hasn't been researched enough yet.

Best regards
Manfred]]></description>
      <category>Roundtrip</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,143#msg-143</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:19:31 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Simple XML or BPEL to execute BPMN processes</title>
      <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,142#msg-142</link>
      <author>mivsek</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dear Manfred,

Thank you for your information which definitively have a value for me that make me decided to go with Simple BPMN and forget BPEL for now. Fortunately I'm not bind to use a BPEL engine so I can go more direct way.

One more question: I heard somewhere that you'll provide a round-robin BPEL connection, that is, BPEL export as well as import. Will you provide that for Simple BPMN too?

Best regards
Janko]]></description>
      <category>Roundtrip</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,142#msg-142</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:51:24 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Simple XML or BPEL to execute BPMN processes</title>
      <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,141#msg-141</link>
      <author>sturm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi Janko,

as you might already know, BPEL export support will be included in the forthcoming release of the Professional Edition.

Your questions can't be answered in general, but maybe some more information and personal thoughts might guide you to a suitable solution for your challenges:

1) Simple BPMN (or &quot;BPMN style XML&quot; as we name it too) has been designed to provide a full structured dump of a BPMN diagram. This is due to a temporary shortcoming in the work of the BPMN working group. But a metamodel for easy data exchange (called BPDM) is in the making in the BPMN working group.

2) Mapping BPMN to BPEL is, a you noticed it, not a straight forward procedure (often called &quot;instrumentation&quot; or &quot;orchestration&quot;). Main problem here: the definition structure of BPEL and BPMN are rather different. Professional Edition addresses this challenge by providing support to prepare, transfer and deploy BPMN diagrams in your favorite BPEL server. Stay tuned for the official release this month.

3) If you are not aming for a BPEL server to execute your processes, you might feel more comfortable to use the &quot;stupid but complete&quot; Simple BPMN and write your own translator to support your vendor specific, non-standard process execution environment.

4) Other candidate export standards (like XPDL) are in evaluation to be included in Process Modeler, but no decision has been made so far. As well we are about to support vendor peculiarities, like those of Oracle's BPEL server (former Collaxa BPEL server), to provide smooth integrations.

5) &quot;Without loss of any detail&quot;: of course this is always a &quot;wishful thinking&quot; requirement, but there are other ways to handle this. Process Modeler makes another approach by immediately assisting the user while modeling to avoid BPMN definitions, which cannot be translated into BPEL later on. So just a well defined, bit still strong subset of BPMN will be available for those diagrams, leaving you with enough modeling possibilities to design your processes.

Are these explanations of any value for you?

Best regards
Manfred

]]></description>
      <category>Roundtrip</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,141#msg-141</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:05:45 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Simple XML or BPEL to execute BPMN processes</title>
      <link>http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,140#msg-140</link>
      <author>mivsek</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dear All,

Recently I'm wondering, which path to choose to connect BPMN diagrams to BPM engine. BPEL seems to become a defacto standard but also seems to be rather incomplete and narrow in suporting BPMN completely. There seems to be a lot of tricks used to map BMPN to BPEL correctly. 

On the other side, XML support, Process Modeller provide (Siple XML, is that correct name?), is a direct translation of BPMN diagrams to XML, without loss of any detail. Therefore it seems better to me to support BPMN in BPM engines fully. 

My question is: if I'm not restricted to BPEL engine, isn't better to go with Process Modeller's XML instead of BPEL?

Thanks
Janko

]]></description>
      <category>Roundtrip</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.itp-commerce.com/services/forum/read.php?7,140,140#msg-140</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:12:14 +0100</pubDate>
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